Get a life, sweetheart, or go jump back on your mage and whine about locks to somebody who cares.

ive said this once and ill say it again...deathntaxes sucks...quite ferociously....i mean seriosuly...is someone a wee bit on the down side bc they arent the local BAMF?...

Guy are you nuts? Warlocks are as beatable as any other class. The problem with so many ppl is that they dont take the time to think. Warlocks are only seen as OP cause ppl just dont know what  to do. 
EX
my group was doing RFD the warrior decieded to duel the warlock named mew2, now mew3 beat the crap out of the warrior and guess what the warrior started bitching about how warlocks are OP. So because he said that i took the liberity to tell him what to do in the duel.

Duel2- Yea when mew2 tried to cast fear he stunnd him, when  he pulled of DC he used his trinkets.... Long story short the warrior raped mew2.And its not that he won, but he won with around 1/2 his life.

You wana kno why he won. IS because he knew what to do. Simple as that but since he didnt kno he ws ignorant and called warlocks OP. If you guys simply learned warlocks weakness you will agree that they are not as powerful as you think they are

Well said.  The probalem with this game is that it started out as a PvE based game that everyone wanted PvP in so it was expanded upon, years of theorycraft and imba matchups.  Certain classes will always struggle with others, but the difference is there IS a way to beat any class you just need to be a) not a complete gimp thinking key mashing will win a fight and actually know what you are meant to be doing against a certain class, and b) skilled to be able to pull of the correct moves at the correct time.

Not being able to beat a warlock doesn't make them OP, it makes you not skilled enough to be able to beat them.  Warlocks have weaknesses just like everyone else, and now that Bliz have introduced trinkets to get rid of fear effects there is reason anyone can't beat a lock (with the exeption of a mage perhaps).

Just think things through before you start threads like this...very non-constructive.  A better post would have been along the lines of: 'I get beaten by warlocks everytime I dueal/PvP so how can I get better, are there any weaknesses to know about or any strategies to think through?'....but it's so much easier to just want them nerfed to beat them easy isn't it.....

You dont NEED talents on any class but u want them. Wl can sometimes be cheap but talents ALWAYS help.

Fear spam is the bane of warlocks. Its the reason they are hated and the best warlocks are the ones who rarely do it. Yes there are ways around it but rock/paper/scissors, there are classes that cnt stop it in time. Though as a class to play as, a warlock does have it damn easy in PvE. I play a hunter as my main, so pet tanking is useful. The fact a lock can DoT it and let the VW work makes it easy for them against most mobs. Failing that, they have other pets and omg, other spells which they can use if things get ugly.
If you wanna kill a warlock, smack him upside the head :) Just dnt get scared doing it..

I get sick of this "warlocks are over powered" argument.

Bullshit, plain and simple.

They have leveling a little easier because they have a pet, but so do hunters, and hunters have mail armor, less of a dependancy on mana, and pets that can do good damage sans 41 talent points.

As for no talent points, tell me how your colon feels because your head is up your ass so far they're gonna need the jaws of life.  An affliction lock is nothing with out the talent points to increase corruption damage, to be given unstable affliction, and to increase DOT damage.

A demonology lock is nothing without soul link and for full demo a fel guard.

A destro lock is nothing without ruin and full destro is nothing without the talents that enhance fire damage.


Warlocks are not overpowered, infact they're just as they should be as one of if not the most damaging class out there.  Why?  Well warlocks have little to no CC, succubus yeah but if you consider that viable in anything serious you havent used it much. 

Rogues can sap, mages can sheep, hunters can trap, but locks have nothing.  We have to survive.  To that end we have dots, spells that allow us to damage without full focus so we can actually work on surviving.

So no CC, lets continue, like many DPS classes we're limited to cloth, so basically no damage mitigation, but unlike mages we dont have skills like ice block or frost nova to temporarily dodge the damage.  Unlike priests we dont have skills to increase armor greatly (yes demon armor, but a few hundered is far from the over 1k that priest get from inner fire) and unlike both we have no shielding spell, save sacrificing a voidwalker which if you're at that point you've already lost.

So no CC, no spells to dodge the bullet, what else is there.  Oh yes, we're the most reagent heavy class in the game.  Soul shards are a warlocks ass.  Run out and you could very well die.  Now I will give you that we are also the only class that makes our own reagents, it isnt just sitting down and farting em out, drain soul is a shitty spell with very low damage that either A. kills your DPS, or B. almost kills you.  Also our vendor bought reagents, while not necessary, are the most expensive in the game.

So no CC, no mitigation abilities, heavyily dependant on reagents, lets talk about mana.  A good fire mage can cast till his hands bleed.  They're incredibly mana effecient with talents.  Shadow priests return their own mana, and health, just by attacking, hunters have a sting and an aspect that returns mana to them, what do we have?  A 5 second channeled spell that has to run for 3 just to pay for itself.  Ontop of that all forms of warlock burn through mana.  DOTs must be cast multiple times on any pull or fight in a dungeon/raid and cost a good deal and shadowbolt will eat up mana fast if you spam it.  So what do we have, we have life tap and dark pact.

First off life tap, health to mana, simple as that.  Its one skill that warlocks get heckled and harrased over more then any other.  Yes, it lets us retain full mana easily, especially in groups with a good healer, but that makes us very reliant on others to keep our mana up, and just try to life tap, removing large chunks of health fairly quickly, while you have some kind of nasty bleed or poison effect on you, its not happening.

Dark pact is already balanced in that its very deep in the affliction tree and using an imp you get two, if you're lucky or have high int, dark pacts then your imp is spent.

So no CC, no mitigation, reliant on reagents, mana ineffecient, lets talk about stats!  Talk to a good guild and they'll tell you one thing, hit rating is your ass as a DPSr.  Every single ranged DPS class has some form of talent to lower the needed hit rating except warlocks.  Yes we have supression that helps the affliction tree, but even a full affliction lock gets about half their damage from shadowbolting, which requires the full 202 points of hit.  I have to gem almost every socket for hit rating to maintain that cap.  Because of this I lose massive amounts of possible crit/damage when compared to other classes like mages and shadow priests.

So no CC, no mitigation, reagents like no other, mana ineffecient, and difficult to maintain stats. finally lets talk spell rotations.  Most casual players wont really get into this, but the raiders will.  What does a fire mage do?  Scorch scorch scorch scorch scorch fireball fireball fireball fireball scorch fireball fireball fire ball ect.  Two buttons, thats all it takes to DPS effectively.  What does a warlock do?  We cast DOTs in the appropriate and percise sequence, we then balance shadow bolts with mana regen making sure to then re-apply our DOTs at the exact time they run out, no sooner, no later, then attempt to once again maintain mana and continue shadowbolting.  That's an affliction lock, for demo its slightly differnet. 

You have to open with the appropriate spell, beit curse of dot, then apply immolate and use incinerate while timing the use of conflagerate so that you final incinerate lands while its still on but you use late enough that you dont lose periodic damage all while maintaining mana.

Someone already said this, but any lock that spams fear, all the time, is a lock that most likely is not in a group very often.  There is a time and place for fear, it can be used to hold a stray add off, that is until the diminishing return makes it worthless, under very unique circumstance, but all in all its a pvp skill that rarely sees any use in raids or dungeons.

So whats the trade off to all of this?  Damage, balls out, spread eagle up the ass damage.  We kill like no other class, that is all we do.  We do not heal you, we do not tank your mobs, we do not control the numbers on a pull, we kill that is all we do, and we do it fucking well.

Shadownaut thank you for taking the time to properly explain the pros and cons of warlocks.

Any class is at a disadvantage if the opposing lock is a good player.  Any lock is at a disadvantage if the opposing class is good.

I've wiped the floor with warriors before because they werent sporting the right gear (usually pve geared so fear breaker trinkets) or they didnt know what to do at the right time.

I've also beaten and been beaten by feral druids because we both knew how to read the other.  The outcome of a 1 on 1 duel has little to do with the class and most to do with the player.

Well done deathntaxes.  you got a score of  minus 3100.

Edit. minus 3200 after my vote.

shaownaut.. you might be my favorite person in the whole world.

finally someone to give an explanation of locks for what they really are!




to other classes:
yes, our fear is nice.
yes, you might die of a dot.
yes, I know that makes you mad.
but yes, we do have weaknesses..
so yes! we ARE beatable!
and no! we are NOT overpowered!

learn how to use your class's strengths against our weaknesses. it all evens out in the end.. (just like the lanes of traffic on the freeway haha)





oh and affliction all the way =)

Amen. And yea the hit rating eats your damage =(

Well said.. Although I can't help being a wiseguy and stating that when you make use of WoW's focus functionality, the succubus is actually a very very very strong CC'ing tool. Not as good as sheep or sap even with improved succubus but certainly on par with ice block (and arguably far better). Even in heroics you can use the succubus to chain-seduce a mob while you chain-fear another, taking 2 mobs out of the equasion faster than your mage can say manabreak.

Which is of course totally situational and as good as useless in PvP but still.. Although I do remember a duel long ago on the pier at menethil harbor involving a /petstay followed by a few Seduces and a very angry dwarf fading in the distance. Sadly of course, that sort of stuff doesn't work at higher levels :(

My comments about the succubus come from personal use.  Many times in heroics has someone said "we need more CC just get out the succubus"  And every time the first few seconds go well then it breaks, the succubus gets turned inside out and something very big and very pissed comes looking for me.

Personally I wish they would just remove seduce and replace it with something more offense oriented so its not even an issue anymore.

As far as pvp goes, I've actually had some good use out of it in AV.  I'm a demo/destro build so I keep the succubus up for the shadow damage boost, and usually on passive, so some hunter takesa pot shot, and ends up all hearty and gets a crit shadowbolt down his throat, but I would never go out of my way to use it because its just to iffy.

thanks so much for this post! it made my day!  and NO, succ CC still sucks. . .in regular five mans it's acceptable, but it ALWAYS breaks in PvP heroics and raids. . .not to mention if you want it to last a little longer than ten seconds or whatever it is you have to get to the third tier in demo. . .

OK so how many destruction locks have you seen raiding that use fire? Umm none

The part where destruction locks are over powered and yes i am a lock and yes i still say this, is the demonic sacrifice/shadow and flame build. All that lock has to do is spam shadowbolts. No dots no nothing. CoS if no other lock in raid casting it. and then spam shadowbolts. In a lot of high end game raids your locks are going to be at the top of damage meters jsut from this. shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt. Be smart with your life taps and you will not run out of mana.

That's not overpowered though, the reason warlocks have a damage output higher then any other class is because its all we bring to the table.  We have no buffs and very minimal group friendly skills.

The entire basis of the "warlocks are overpowered" mentality is that for whatever reason people believe that some other class should be the top of the damage, say fire mages, but they have the ability to conjure water for themselves and the group, to polymorph targets for CC, and can do neet things like root and stun targets.  All of those are very group friendly, so for them to have all that AND be the undisputed kings of damage, that would be overpowered.

It's funny how you don't hear a peep from the mages and druids when you cast CoE and put their DPS through the roof.

Same goes for shadow priests. All of a sudden we're everyone's best friend.

(Well, if they notice)

Shadownaut is 100% correct, People that say warlocks are overpowered are the ones that don't know how to play there character and get tired of being killed or out DPS'ed by locks.

Were not overpowered, we can't do anything else but dps so its normal for a lock to be very destructive. And because of everyone thinking that we are overpowered, Blizzard is now nerfing us!

Stop being jealious, stop whining and just face the fact that warlocks are nothing but DPS class and you either have to rethink the way you play to kill one, or just bare the sight of a lock at the top of the DPS meter.

i would think its the casters who dont believe a warlock 5 levels lower should be able to beat them...

Shadownaut ~ Congrats ~ I have not seen anything yet to contradict u , but more than enough to support you ~ Thanks again :)

And for everyone who cries about Shadownaut scroll up ~ there are 3 more who know better and have posted something useful ~

~ Twinks dont Kill You ~ You kill U ~ SilverKiss of Sentinals

The best warlocks know *when* to use it. Fear is amazingly helpful against healing classes when your felhunter's devour magic is on CD.  It's rediculous for plate and mail classes to whine about how overpowered locks are.  Get your first aid up, use it and slam them and use stuns when they try to fear.

In response to skyzzor-

Exactly right, im sustaining 1600 DPS with just a curse up and then shadowbolts only in 25 man raids. DoTs = reduced DPS until you get the 2 piece T5 bonus, even then they're questionable.

I'm doing this using the Frozen shadowweave set + spellstrike with some kara gear + gruul sword, the rest is heroic drops or badge turn ins.

Someone has already responded, but it's my post under attack so I'm gonna throw in my response too.



---------------------------------------------------------
We'll just ignore fear completely for this one, won't we? Fear is the BEST CC out there, bar none.

-Fear is not CC, CC is Crowd Control, I.E. it controls a crowd or "mob" fear is the exact opposite, it makes them run wildly regarldess of what you want.  It's also short lived and has a diminishing return, it is NOT crowd control, its a last stitch effort if its used in that fashion

Fear takes care of this as well, so you just continue to ignore it.

-Again, if you're using fear in a defensive manner you're either in a rare position where there is nothing close by to be grabbed by the roaming NPC or you're getting ready to turn tail.

What a bunch of crap. Soul Shards are FREE. I'm a hunter and I have NEVER shot an arrow I didn't have to pay for. Plus I have to keep a quiver AND a ammo pouch, taking up space in the bank. I routinely spend a few GOLD on arrows that you just have to go get for free. Boo fricking hoo.

-Yes they are free, but its balanced by the major inconveince of gathering them.  Ask any destruction lock how fast they go through them.  1 for a minion, 1 for a soul fire, 1 for a shadowburn (if timing is off) thats 3 in one fight, then another 2-3 every fight afterwards.  Drain soul is a very low damage attack that is designed to make it difficult (especially for warlocks who are not affliction) to land a killing blow.  Yes they're free, but they have their own "cost" 

There's a reason for that! Life Tap + Health Stones = Mana Efficiency! Duh!

-Um, no.  Healthstones return about 2k health, at 70, and cost 1400 to make.  So you'd have to life tap 2-3 times just to pay for the mana to make one, giving you only 400ish health throughout.  There is also a 2min cooldown on Healthstones meaning even if it was mana effecient to life tap and healthstone that you couldnt do it but once.

his is simply diverting the argument. When people complain about locks being overpowered, they're TALKING about PVP. They have pets for PvE and Raids, and the DPS pretty darn well too.

-Since when?  I've personally gotten flak in raids from guild memebers telling me that I'm a warlock that I should be doing more damage because I'm an overpowered warlock. 

Locks are DAMN powerful, I don't begrudge you your power, but stop trying to convince us that you are so fricking weak.

I didnt say we were weak, I said we are as we should be.  We are not overpowered, and we are not under powered, no class is any better then the other, that was my point.

hehe BeezleBubbaThrall.. Another nabtard who never fought anything that wasn't alone, and <AFK>.

This is a funny thread!

Oh yes, fear, the BEST CC out there... That draws 8 new mobs to kill you everytime you use it. Fear, the perfect way not to worry about wearing cloth, uh huh, so I fear that mob, and then I get 3 more coming back at me to quadruple the dmg I was taking before? mmhmm, totally see what you're saying. How on earth could I have missed the fact that bringing back at least double the mobs you had before HELPS us survive. Damn buddy, you're smart, you found that out when all us locks out there totally missed it.

Dang I just realized someone posted the same thing but with different arguments....ah well


<<We'll just ignore fear completely for this one, won't we? Fear is the BEST CC out there, bar none. >>

Can you fear an undead? A robot? Does sap, polymorph, entangling roots, frost trap send mobs screaming around an instance aggroing mobs? Sure it may not break on all damage, but then again warlocks don't do burst damage. They need time for their DoT's to take full effect.

Its easy to solve this problem, you know. Since we need fear to do damage over time, just let our DoT's do all their damage upfront. End of story!



<<What a bunch of crap. Soul Shards are FREE. I'm a hunter and I have NEVER shot an arrow I didn't have to pay for. Plus I have to keep a quiver AND a ammo pouch, taking up space in the bank. I routinely spend a few GOLD on arrows that you just have to go get for free. Boo fricking hoo. >>

Sure, you have to buy arrows. Why dont you spend ten minutes an hour farming for your arrows? I'm sure many warlocks would like to buy shards too.


<<There's a reason for that! Life Tap + Health Stones = Mana Efficiency! Duh! >>

There's a reason for that! Health stones are on a 2 minute cooldown, don't return much more health than the mana used to make it, and for their full effect a warlock needs to deplete a good fraction of their health away (overhealing is wasted). Duh!


<<This is simply diverting the argument. When people complain about locks being overpowered, they're TALKING about PVP. They have pets for PvE and Raids, and the DPS pretty darn well too.>>

Alright, PvP. What do warlocks spec for PvP? Either a) Felguard b) SL/SL  c) drain tank spec, because destruction isn't viable (die too fast)

Felguard: CC the felguard! It doesn't have a trinket to get out of a trap, banish .etc Just because it looks humanoid doesn't mean its a player. Alternatively, just burst the warlock down. If he dies so does his pet. If they are demononlogy then they won't have an insane amount of DoT's to kill you after they die (they still do have a few...)

SL/SL: Warlock in question specs into the demononlgy tree, but doesn't get the felguard. He also specs affliction, and also does not get the final damaging talent. His damage is low, and even though this spec was a bit OP, it's been nerfed.

Affliction: Find a healer/dispeller! If he tries to drain you then interrupt his spells! Is that such a difficult concept?


Oh yes, SL/SL means siphon life/soul link, wherein you also get curse of exhaustion

Final obligatory comment:

LRN2PLY, retard

For one, warlocks are actually a difficult class to play well. We have a ton of different dots, curses, and pets at our disposal which is great, but also makes it very challenging to do the right thing at the right time. Proper management is something few attain.
Fear is a powerful form of cc "if" used correctly. In pve, the actual usefulness is quite limited. The vast majority of mobs are social creatures and are therefore linked in combat if near another mob. That makes it a challenging form of cc as instead of providing you with a form of defence, it can cause greater damage upon yourself. If you are skilled enoigh, you can fear ping pong a mob by alternating CoR with another non-damaging curse, but that almost effectively takes your damage abilities out of the equation really quick.
One of the more challenging aspects of being a warlock is the time factor. Most toons in wow have the ability to either burst an opponent down or mitigate damage enough to outlast them. Warlocks have neither. We are a very fragile class and our spells take a minimum of 15-24 seconds to take effect. And that is only after you have applied them. If you are uninterupted, you can apply enough dots to kill someone with low-medium health in 9-12 seconds, but reality rarely allows you that luxury. In most situations we are far too busy trying to run away/getting interupted that we don't get the time to cast enough dots. That leaves us with little options at that point. We can try get a fear off, but that is far too often silenced, sheeped, pummeled, kicked, etc., or we can use death coil. Death coil is an instant cast 3 second horror effect that can only be used once every 2 minutes. It really only provides us with a window to try one last effort.
On average, if I'm being attacked, I am dead in 6-10 seconds. Not enough time to kill my opponent. Even if I do manage to apply enough dots, I'm still likely to die before my opponent does. A quick heal, pot, or bandage and anyone can survive through my dots.
With the deminishing returns on fear, it is nothing more then an interupt or a very short lived cc. Fear is broken, unreliable, and for the most part useless spell.
Pets are an interesting topic. We have an immense amount of potential with them, but again, only in certain situations. The imp has fireball which when used, serves as another dot. He is extremely fragile though and the slightest damage will put him under.
The voidwalker is a pve tank. That is it. It can be used as an extra 30 second 1000 damage shield, but then you lose it.
The succubus is a pretty lass who can put out decent dps and can seduce. She also is extremely fragile. Seduce shares the deminishing returns of fear and is even less reliable. 
The felhunter is a caster killer as it has high magic resistance, increases casting time with its damage, and can silence. To be effective though, it takes intense micromanagement. It doesn't do much damage.
The felguard is great dps, medium armor, and can charge. To get him you have to spec down demonology though. It is ok for undergeared locks, but you lose most of your effectiveness if it is cc'd. Plus you don't have much talents to work with either.
We also get the doomguard and inferno which were unreliable, costly, and ineffective at 60 and have never scaled beyond that.
If you have the right pet at the right time and you know how to use them, they can be a good asset.
Can we do lots of damage? Yes, in the right situations. But really, we have nothing else.

Destro is more than viable for PVP, as I am a faithful minion to playing in that style.  I do agree tat it is very squishy and easy to kill.  but that is very easily fixed by finding a friendly warrior to play meatsheild for you and if anything does come up and hit you guess what, backlash and give them a shadbolt/dc in the face or incin if your are fire destro then maybe a shadowfury fear immo incin again conflag and if not dead shadowburn.  destro locks are extremely great for pvp if used correctly is what I am saying.

For PVE a destro lock is just plain awesome.  as long as there is a healer close by, in normal dungeons you can solo most leets in heroics better watch your agro or you are ded...even if the tank dies you are next on the threat list usually.

while raiding i am usually right under the tanks if we wipe i know i prolly dont have time to hellfire to avoid the dur loss.

besides hunters paying for their arrows yes i know its a pain, my first main was a hunter.  I can already say from experience that hunters dont ever repair half as much as any lock. not even a third as much as me. that my friendly hunters is something to keep in mind we dont have that convenient little feign death we have a 5min cooldown that drops 50% of our threat not 100% with a 30sec cooldown.

fear is extremely situational, and i will agree that it is not to be used usnless you are sure you wont get adds, it is dam annoying getting adds from a fear.

another thing for pvp yes stuns on a lock is bad stuns on a destro lock even worse. besides destro locks have cast times unlike affy. if I get alowed to stand in one spot like in a instance and just nuke. i spill out death but then there is a hunter of a rogue trying to maneuver close to me so i should move and same thing with warriors.

ill just sum up the weaknesses real quick for pvp..only really related to pvp
1 stuns if you stun a lock they cant do a thing
2 interupt, like using kick, cs, sheild bash....it doesnt hurt destro locks too much as incin and shadbolt are nearly the same but in opposite trees.
3 yes can fear only really effective maybe 3 times keeping that player running like a chicken maybe 10-15 secs combined on average.
4 mana intensive...yes affy has darkpact and drain and so do demo...destro on the other hand life tap and bandaid/cannabilize if i go oom inmiddle of a fight im prolly ded
5 doesnt really apply to affy, sorta to demo cast times, most of the real fun stuff that destro does is cast, even on a player within 15 seconds i can easily do over 17k damage when specd for fire but everything is casted 1 interupt or fear even a blind or a simple hit can change the course of a spell cast.
6 dots, guess what if you happen to kill a lock you are fighting, if you still have enough life EAT, you arent in combat so EAT that is one of the most annoying things ive learned is seeing the dude i was fighting eating while my dots are still up. every other class you are still in combat cause more than likely the dot doesnt last long. if you eat guess what, you dont die from dots.
7 player skill, if the player doesnt know how to use what he has he is ded you can read a locks skill very easilly. with me i keep my blood guard tag up to remind me of how fast i got it cause of letting others take the damage for me and letting me live a lil longer. once you get over the fact that locks own in dishing out damage maybe you can learn you to stop them from dishing it out.

I've seen references to "SL/SL" as a tactic or talents for PVP.  I admit I'm slow - what is SL/SL?

27/34/0 build with siphon life and soul link.

The "siphon life / soul link" build is a high survivability specc.  Soul link transfers damage to your demon so you take less of it, with siphon life giving you a constant in flow of health.

Anyone who says any class is OP is wrong. Blizzard has a pretty large consumer base, and I don't think they'd actually mess up bad enough to make a noticably OP class. They must be doing something right if that many people will play this game. People who can't win in a duel and whine about OP classes are just sore and looking for a way to keep their pride, because most people who hear "I fully accept the fact that you beat me fairly" will reply "Yeah, that's right, noob!" rather than "I am also aware of this, and you put up a very good fight. Thank you for duelling me, I hope to meet you again." Point is, MMO's are the most cutthrought world of nerdery there is, and people are jerks a lot. When lots of people are jerks, your immediate asumption is "this guy will be a jerk". No-one wants to think that, but subconciously, you all likely have at some point. Imma dun wit mah psychological talkin now. Mah brane neds a rest.

P.S.: Those who didn't just lose a duel likely have in the past, and are still licking an ego-wound.

>>>> I get sick of this "warlocks are over powered" argument.

Agreed.

>>>> Warlocks are not overpowered, infact they're just as they should be as one of if not the most damaging class out there.

There is no reason for warlocks to be the sole best damage dealers, but they should be able to share that spot with mages, rogues, shadow priests, ect. 

>>>> Why?  Well warlocks have little to no CC.

We have little CC, but not no CC.

>>>> Rogues can sap, mages can sheep, hunters can trap, but locks have nothing.  We have to survive.  To that end we have dots, spells that allow us to damage without full focus so we can actually work on surviving.

Wow, you're comparing our CC to rogues and mages, the two classes who need more CC than us because they don't have a demon to hide behind. And, I think fear is far more useful than traps. Most hunters will never put points into trap talents because of the rarety of using them.

>>>> So no CC, lets continue, like many DPS classes we're limited to cloth, so basically no damage mitigation, but unlike mages we dont have skills like ice block or frost nova to temporarily dodge the damage. 

Yes, we have CC. To say we have no CC is a lie. No we don't have ice block, but we don't really need it as much as mages and whereas only frost spec mages get ice block, any spec warlock can seduce/sacrifice/spell lock. How is frost nova too different than howl of terror? Yes frost nova is better, but really, we don't need it. Just because a mage spell is better than a warlock spell, doesn't mean that a warlock still can't be over powered.

>>>> Unlike priests we dont have skills to increase armor greatly (yes demon armor, but a few hundered is far from the over 1k that priest get from inner fire) and unlike both we have no shielding spell, save sacrificing a voidwalker which if you're at that point you've already lost.

We don't need to increase our armor like priests, we can hide behind a demon and we have better CC than a priest. Demon > innerfire. A lot of priests don't even use innerfire. As for already having lost if you sacrifice, you're ignoring the fact that demolocks can sac a void and almost instant summon another pet. Destruct and afflict warlocks can do the same because the talents to get an instant summon pet are low on the demo tree.

>>>> Oh yes, we're the most reagent heavy class in the game.  Soul shards are a warlocks ass. Also our vendor bought reagents, while not necessary, are the most expensive in the game.

Yes, we are reagent dependent. That is kind of the fun/obstacle of our class, but being reagent dependent doesn't really determine whether we are over powered or not. It is a con, it doesn't affect our power unless we run out.

>>>> A good fire mage can cast till his hands bleed.  They're incredibly mana effecient with talents.

Yes, warlocks are not mana efficient. That is the trade off of our class. That is what seperates a mage from a warlock. We become mana inefficient, but in return we get really high burst damage. If a warlock wants to be mana efficient, he always has the option of speccing affliction. Being mana inefficient isn't a bad thing for our class. It is the reason we are so powerful.

>>>> There is a time and place for fear, it can be used to hold a stray add off, that is until the diminishing return makes it worthless, under very unique circumstance, but all in all its a pvp skill that rarely sees any use in raids or dungeons.

Yes, fear is a pvp skill, because in pve, we get to hide behind our pet or other players.

>>>> We do not heal you,

No we don't and neither do some other classes that do less damage.

>>>> we do not tank your mobs,

Unless we use voidwalker or felguard.

>>>> we do not control the numbers on a pull,

Unless we use seduce or banish, or send our pet to occupy an enemy.

>>>> we kill that is all we do, and we do it fucking well.

Okay. It seems Shadownaut explained that Warlocks are not easy to play and require that you spend your talent points. However, it looks like he went out of his way to make warlocks look weak and completely ignored things like fear. He said half a dozen times that warlocks do not have CC. He ignore situations where a warlock can use his pet to tank or occupy an enemy in a group. And he made it look as if we need as much CC as a frost mage. That is really the wrong way to defend our class. It's being deceptive about the things our class can do and focusing on the cons like mana inefficiency. He picked the one class build with the best CC, a frost mage, and almost solely compared a warlock's CC to it, ignoring other classes and builds.

Onto his next post:

>>>> Fear is not CC, CC is Crowd Control, I.E. it controls a crowd or "mob" fear is the exact opposite, it makes them run wildly regarldess of what you want.

Of course it is CC. Just because it makes the enemy run, instead of stand still, doesn't mean it isn't CC. The only spell that truely allows you to control another unit's actions is the Priest's mind control.

>>>> it is NOT crowd control

Please, stop lying. You make it look like the warlocks position is so weak that they have to lie about not being over powered. Use some legitament arguments.

>>>> Again, if you're using fear in a defensive manner you're either in a rare position where there is nothing close by to be grabbed by the roaming NPC or you're getting ready to turn tail.

If there are NPCs nearby to grab agro, then you are likely fighting NPCs. In that case you have the option of usually hiding behind a pet/ally. Fear is a PVP skill, but we don't really need it for PVE, because we have pets. It seems like you are completely ignoring the fact that we have pets for PVE and fear for PVP and just complaining about the fact that we don't have ice block. Most builds don't have ice block.

>>>> I didnt say we were weak, I said we are as we should be.

No, you never said warlocks were weak, but you wen't well out of your way to make them look weak. You complained about how much fear does not work in PVE, but you neglected the fact that we have pets to hide behind in PVE.

I play a mage and from my point of view a warlock does "seem" OP. Its just really hard for us to beat a lock, in my eyes that is what makes it fun, it is a challenge. But I see warlocks get eaten up by the other classes just as much as me in PVP. I do remember in an AV once a gnome lock kept killing me over and over, i kept looking at the score and she was down near the middle while I was up top. So I do think the lock class is balanced...just not against mages lol.

(Shadownaut here in the parenthesis)

>>>> I get sick of this "warlocks are over powered" argument.

Agreed.

(We're on the same page here)

>>>> Warlocks are not overpowered, infact they're just as they should be as one of if not the most damaging class out there.

There is no reason for warlocks to be the sole best damage dealers, but they should be able to share that spot with mages, rogues, shadow priests, ect. 

(Ask any decent Spriest and they will tell you that they shouldnt be top in damage because they are a group utility class.  Mages, maybe.  Rogues ARE the highest single target DPS class but over the course of a raid where AoE comes into play they get over taken in the long run)

>>>> Why?  Well warlocks have little to no CC.

We have little CC, but not no CC.

>>>> Rogues can sap, mages can sheep, hunters can trap, but locks have nothing.  We have to survive.  To that end we have dots, spells that allow us to damage without full focus so we can actually work on surviving.

Wow, you're comparing our CC to rogues and mages, the two classes who need more CC than us because they don't have a demon to hide behind. And, I think fear is far more useful than traps. Most hunters will never put points into trap talents because of the rarety of using them.

(First off this is exactly what I meant by "exactly as they should be"  We dont have CC for a reason, we dont need it.  In exchange for it CC we have a pet.  We are, once again, exactly as we should be.  As for hunters, dont get me started, they have a pet AND viable CC, there arent even talent points for fear)

>>>> So no CC, lets continue, like many DPS classes we're limited to cloth, so basically no damage mitigation, but unlike mages we dont have skills like ice block or frost nova to temporarily dodge the damage. 

Yes, we have CC. To say we have no CC is a lie. No we don't have ice block, but we don't really need it as much as mages and whereas only frost spec mages get ice block, any spec warlock can seduce/sacrifice/spell lock. How is frost nova too different than howl of terror? Yes frost nova is better, but really, we don't need it. Just because a mage spell is better than a warlock spell, doesn't mean that a warlock still can't be over powered.

(Again, we dont NEED it because we have other means, the problem is that our "other means" are seen as overpowered.

  As for seduce, its a hokey form of CC that you rarely see end game for a reason.  Sacrifice I will give you, but if you're popping sacrifice something has gone wrong.  As for spell lock, it only works on casters, so melee NPCs are free to attack. 

  And frost nova is incredibly different for the one purpose that you CONTROL what the NPC does.  Fear is the opposite, they may not be attacing you but we've all seen the feared monster that makes a straight line run for another mob)

>>>> Unlike priests we dont have skills to increase armor greatly (yes demon armor, but a few hundered is far from the over 1k that priest get from inner fire) and unlike both we have no shielding spell, save sacrificing a voidwalker which if you're at that point you've already lost.

We don't need to increase our armor like priests, we can hide behind a demon and we have better CC than a priest. Demon > innerfire. A lot of priests don't even use innerfire. As for already having lost if you sacrifice, you're ignoring the fact that demolocks can sac a void and almost instant summon another pet. Destruct and afflict warlocks can do the same because the talents to get an instant summon pet are low on the demo tree.

(Again, we dont NEED it because we have other abilities.  As for better CC then priests?  They have fear, they have shackle AND they have mind control.  Yes you can do a sac + speed summon if you have the demonology points, but its once every 15 min due to the cooldown so unlike other forms of protection its not always there when we need it)

>>>> Oh yes, we're the most reagent heavy class in the game.  Soul shards are a warlocks ass. Also our vendor bought reagents, while not necessary, are the most expensive in the game.

Yes, we are reagent dependent. That is kind of the fun/obstacle of our class, but being reagent dependent doesn't really determine whether we are over powered or not. It is a con, it doesn't affect our power unless we run out.

(Well put, its a con, its purpose is to off set some of the strengths we have as a class, its a balancing mechanism)

>>>> A good fire mage can cast till his hands bleed.  They're incredibly mana effecient with talents.

Yes, warlocks are not mana efficient. That is the trade off of our class. That is what seperates a mage from a warlock. We become mana inefficient, but in return we get really high burst damage. If a warlock wants to be mana efficient, he always has the option of speccing affliction. Being mana inefficient isn't a bad thing for our class. It is the reason we are so powerful.

(Again, well said.  Our mana ineffeciency balances our power, exactly my point)

>>>> There is a time and place for fear, it can be used to hold a stray add off, that is until the diminishing return makes it worthless, under very unique circumstance, but all in all its a pvp skill that rarely sees any use in raids or dungeons.

Yes, fear is a pvp skill, because in pve, we get to hide behind our pet or other players.

>>>> We do not heal you,

No we don't and neither do some other classes that do less damage.

(But those other classes can buff you in some other form, something we do not have)

>>>> we do not tank your mobs,

Unless we use voidwalker or felguard.

(that comment was made in regards to dungeons and raids, and no they dont.  No shield, low armor, and mediocre health makes demons ideal for solo pve tanking but thats it)

>>>> we do not control the numbers on a pull,

Unless we use seduce or banish, or send our pet to occupy an enemy.

(Seduce i've said my peace on, banish is very situtional, and off tanking with a pet is just not viable.  In a dungeon at level the pet will most likely die resting the aggro to the warlock cuasing the mob to run into the group, usually kill the lock, and then start working on the healers)

>>>> we kill that is all we do, and we do it fucking well.

Okay. It seems Shadownaut explained that Warlocks are not easy to play and require that you spend your talent points. However, it looks like he went out of his way to make warlocks look weak and completely ignored things like fear. He said half a dozen times that warlocks do not have CC. He ignore situations where a warlock can use his pet to tank or occupy an enemy in a group. And he made it look as if we need as much CC as a frost mage. That is really the wrong way to defend our class. It's being deceptive about the things our class can do and focusing on the cons like mana inefficiency. He picked the one class build with the best CC, a frost mage, and almost solely compared a warlock's CC to it, ignoring other classes and builds.

(I didnt say we were weak at any point in the post.  I addressed fear a few times in that its a poor form of CC that should not be relied on in any real group/raid.  Warlocks should not be offtanking with pets, end of story. 

I never said we need CC, only that we do not have it.  I used other classes as an example.  And again they are classes that NEED it so they do have it.  We dont so we dont.  Cons are counters to power.  We have great power and we also have a few great flaws, which work together to balance our class making it exactly as it should be.

I could've gone into other classes but spending the time needed to analyze every class in the game in comparison to warlocks wasnt my goal, maybe I will later if this discussion continues)

Onto his next post:

>>>> Fear is not CC, CC is Crowd Control, I.E. it controls a crowd or "mob" fear is the exact opposite, it makes them run wildly regarldess of what you want.

Of course it is CC. Just because it makes the enemy run, instead of stand still, doesn't mean it isn't CC. The only spell that truely allows you to control another unit's actions is the Priest's mind control.

(I've said my peace on this, opinions are opinions and we'll be running in circles at this pace)

>>>> it is NOT crowd control

Please, stop lying. You make it look like the warlocks position is so weak that they have to lie about not being over powered. Use some legitament arguments.

(and again, I've never said we were weak.  The end of my last post puts it pretty clearly that we do damage, lots of it, that is our one greatest strength that offsets any weakness we have)

>>>> Again, if you're using fear in a defensive manner you're either in a rare position where there is nothing close by to be grabbed by the roaming NPC or you're getting ready to turn tail.

If there are NPCs nearby to grab agro, then you are likely fighting NPCs. In that case you have the option of usually hiding behind a pet/ally. Fear is a PVP skill, but we don't really need it for PVE, because we have pets. It seems like you are completely ignoring the fact that we have pets for PVE and fear for PVP and just complaining about the fact that we don't have ice block. Most builds don't have ice block.

(I'd appreciate not putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say warlocks should have ice block.  And im not going out of my way to include pets into this because its the most basic part of the warlock class, it goes without saying)

>>>> I didnt say we were weak, I said we are as we should be.

No, you never said warlocks were weak, but you wen't well out of your way to make them look weak. You complained about how much fear does not work in PVE, but you neglected the fact that we have pets to hide behind in PVE.

(I never complained, I never said anything along the lines of "fear sucks, why dont we have something better"  I simply stated that fear is not viable CC in dungones/raids because if it was we would be overpowered)


Let me close this out.  I've pointed out many of the flaws in the warlock class, things that counter the DPSing power we have.  Yes I did go out of my way to point these things out because they are the things that most people dont consider. 

So I point out the flaws that balance the warlock class and those in favor of the "locks are OP" arguement say its me complaining and whining about it, yet nowhere in that post did I say we need something more, I said a few times that all these little things add up to be the balancing aspect of our class.

If I go out of my way to point out all the strong points of warlocks then everyone would say "see thats what I mean!  They are OP!"

If you go in looking for warlocks to be OP then you'll get it.  But if you give Blizzard just a little credit you'll see that the ongoing changes made have produced a DPS class that has its issues but also has its strong points.

<PvP>
  Yea, locks do have cc its called succ and fear.  In pvp, the succ is EXTREMELY useful, especially in 2v2... seduce one guy *trinket* seduce again, after seduce time is up (6 secs for second time) fear him (fear doesnt run on same diminishing cd as seduce so thats 6 sec of seduce, 10 sec of fear, *another fear* another 6 sec)
  I just wish that fear would break more often, because it never breaks unless a melee crits on me and I would rather not have that happen to me either. 
  Some of you say that, "fear breaks when u put dots on them..." Not for me, they would UA, fear, corrupt, CoA, siphon life, fear, siphon life. when im not feared i will be able to get a moonfire off <boomkin> because i cant cast anything or im spell locked by the feldoggy (or w/e).
  FOR ALL ELSE THAT READ THIS (NOT LOCKS) I HAVE FOUND THEIR WEAKNESS!!!
  Those +4 resistance gems that enchanters make and put on AH for like 5g or less cuz noone will buy and u pass them up cuz u laugh at them... BUY THEM and get lots of resis gear!!
i got my resistance to 223 in shadow resistance (with help of improved motw and lower city +20 shadow resistance to head) and just a little bit less in everything else... now their dots and fears are resisted like a CRAZY MOFO, only thing that still stops me is gay spell lock, even after thts over i just pewpew and their dead.  TY BLIZZ FOR RESISTANCE, NOW LOCKS and SPRIESTS TICKLE ME JUST LIKE ROGUES AND WARS DO  =D  Boomkins forever!
(looking for solution to hunters since patch 2.3 [cant deadzone them anymore])

Why do shammies need a reagent to breathe under water when warlocks dont??
Arn't shamans like master of elements and shit? so they need reagent to help them as opposed to locks who are masters of shadow and ""evil"" dont need reagent to help them breathe underwater

yea yea >>stupid arguement, cuz why the hell would they ever go under water<<  pshh i take my battles underwater when ever i can  just cuz its fun, but i dont WANNA grind FOR STUPID FISH SCALES  ARGH!

Shadownaut that was amazing!

ah yes i have a little something to add CURSE OF RECKLESNESS it is very easy to kill if you are a lock because you drain life and its over lolon

how bout shammys
i mean, no cc not even a thinkable except kiting with fs with drains all the shamans dps
i think lock and shammy are same difficult

Hey Shadownaut, thanks for all the info, lol. My lock is a level 38 and stinks. I know it is because I am rather new to these games and don't know where to put all these talents and other stuff. But I greatly enjoyed your whole message. Now I gotta try to figure out how to apply it all so I make her a kickass warlock, lol. Thanks.

warlocks are no wher near OP every one just starts to bitch.when  they get feared and say they need to nef it. warlocks need fear or we whould never get are dots out or any other spells.