Currently I am survival spec for raiding, but after my last raid I realized that I had been beaten in full epics (except hourglass of the unraveller which should be epic) by another hunter who had only recently hit level 70 and was still in partial greens. Needless to say I was amazed. Overall he had come in third for damage done behind another hunter and a rogue. I was in ninth however, just barely ahead of a feral druid who had spent half the battle tanking. After this crushing blow to my pride I decided to more closely analyze the specs. Here is what i decided. If any of this is wrong then please post corrections or suggestions.

SURVIVAL: an excellent spec if you are at over 800 agi for dmg, otherwise it is only good at keeping people CC'd and out of your dead zone. If you have less than 800 agi this spec is not worth it in raids. Expose weakness is only going to be like putting a second imp hunter's mark if you don't have the agi, and really you don't see people complaining about if Vashj is hunter's marked or not. With low agi there is almost no raid dps difference.  :..(

MARKSMAN: Like a mage with mail armor, but often times in need of mana. Blizz should really put more in the MM tree to improve aspect of the viper or something, because right now MM hunters go through mana so fast that they need a shammy in their group for mana spring and several mana pots to keep their DPS sustained throughout a raid encounter. There is no doubt in my mind that MM is better at DPS than BM in a sprint, but with raids it is more like a marathon. If you have enough int tho then do it.

BEAST MASTERY: This is probably the best spec for poor to medium geared hunters. If you don't have the agi needed to make survival worth it and you don't have the int needed by MM to keep from going oom then this is the spec for you. Most of the abilities in the BM tree enhance your pet or give you abilities that don't cost you any mana like serpents swiftness. If you do go BM though then don't get too attatched to it because once you are well geared you should probably respec to do more damage. And also, in many boss fights at higher levels bosses like Illidan will kill your pet and the raid healers won't have the time to heal your pet if the boss does any kind of AOE. Personally I don't  like the idea of going BM because it leaves your hunter more vulnerable than either of the other specs in exchange for making your pet better....but remember your pet can't revive you.

Actually, BM is superior damage wise until BT/Hyjal.......when MM becomes equal to it. It is not that difficult to keep your pet alive :). With proper mods/technique/etc. your pet qill live a long, happy life.

I think that by fair the best raid and instance spec is MM. I have recently out dps 2 BM Spec hunters in Gruuls lair that were far better geared then myself and like wise in Kara i won the dps meter very easly against mages, locks, spreits and other hunters. Using the aspect of hawk at the start until your mana drops to about 1/3 and then putting on Aspect of viper i only need to use 1 mana pot for the whole of Gruul and prince in Kara alike. If you also Spec into survival you can make your traps effective enough to hold CC and also use scatter shot to help yourself if you pull agro which in MM Spec is Quite easy. BM Spec releise to much on a pet that is uses when i dies anyway, (I Hardly Use It In Raids).
BM Spec Is Great for LvLing And Some Arena Teams thats it.

Please Leave your thoughs.

BM consistently does more damage than MM if you have your talents right and pet trained right (focus dumping ability).

Look. the best raid spec is Survival heres why.  Survival is great if your geared and have enough stamina and agil (Which you should if your raiding.  MM is great dps but a mana eater. and BM well  not enough damage not enough dps and BM is for hunters that want to die during raids.

You need to stop talking. >.> BM is the superior spec for raid dps. Please go do some research before you talk like you know the class.

im MM hunter and i dont know if its the best.. but whit my 7500mana and can shoot a long time before be OOM..

and for dps MM do  alot more... and im only 650dex...
average shoot is above 800dmg for a 2000 Attack power..
whit a critical aimed shoot i reach the 4k (record of 5241)

BM or MM is all good... its just ur personnal choose..

i choosed MM cause when i was BM in PvP Battleground my pet keep be feared or agroed by a other pet...soo i changed spec..

all to ur choose... goodluck !
heinouca lvl 70 hunter
375/375 LW 375/375 skinner
serveur : Exodar

what I've found to be the best talent tree on my hunter is
41-20-0.  You put enough in BM to get the beastail wrath and the beast within and enough in MM to get aimed shot and the +crit. im not Insanely geared, but im always close to top, if not top, dps in kara and 5 mans.

BM with some from the MM tree will keep up with any other spec over the long fight. Even my 40/5/16 has come in just under a better-geared, full MM on the damage meter in Kara, and that doesn't include my way-better pet damage.

Removed.

Survival has its uses but dps has never been one of them...

overall BM does more damage, i must agree.
but as pride comes into it, coming top in damage meters is a main concern. most meters don't measure pet damage so you always end up lower than the overall damage you caused.

with raid bosses all I do is spam steady shot, with the concussive barrage talent this adds up to massive DPS with excellent mana efficency. usually end up top or second to those pesky locks

That's why I use my own.

In my opinion, my hunter's spec rules in any instance group, whether it be raids, or just normal ones. It is a hybrid, but gives you control over many situations, and after spending over 200g on respecs this one turned out to be most fun, and provided most survivability.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?0500000000000000000000505201255010233105102303020500000000000000

bm is better, for your dps, survival isnt about being on top of the dps, its about supporting the raid with expose weakness. bm has speed, and with AP high, that dps is tough to beat.

Impossible. You can't spec till lvl ten and you cannot even get a pet until Lvl 10. So I dont think you were specced BM at lvl 1.

Ok to all the people who say that they "out DPS" BM hunters as marks... YES YOU DO. But you need to put into account the damage that the pet is doing. I Out DPS BM hunters all day but when you add the pet in with it they are about the same if not a little higher then me. Im not well geared and i NEED more MP5. I go OOM 3/4 thru boss fights but that is just me(i pot all the time and put mana oil on my weapon to help with this). My bet does a tiny bit more DPS then the tank. But having the hunters in the same group helps out the other. If you have a BM and a MM hunter and a rogue, you should put them all in the same group. The rogue and the BM hunter will like TSA.

Actually, my guild doesn't like to have any MM hunters in the raid. We try to run 3 hunters; 2 BM since Ferocious Inspiration stacks and one SV for EW.

ok now i have read some of the replies and i read "bm hunters dont beat me in meter but they have their pets that also gives them dps and therefor they beat me anyway" hmmm my reason for being MM is that my pet dies all the time so i didnt want to be BM but now again im trying to use it and it works fine my point: BM hunters may jump over MM when gthey got pet but no one ever talks about the bonus the MM hunters get for using pets on my opinion (soz havent checked anything this is just a theory) that would MM hunters the boost to be over BM hunter (put SV instead of MM if you want :P)

[quote]
Actually, my guild doesn't like to have any MM hunters in the raid. We try to run 3 hunters; 2 BM since Ferocious Inspiration stacks and one SV for EW.[/quote]

My guild is running TK and SSC and we have a few hunters in the raids. They are not to pickey about what spec they are just as long as they punch out DPS. I raid kara on my hunter(MM) but for TK and SSC im on my pally(holy). SV is great if you have the agility for it. EW is beautiful!!! I just have not seen many SV hunters.

to be honost, BM is good for lvling, but i wouldnt take it for raiding, there u can get more from SURV or MM, my 70 hunter is SURV and i easily beat a full epic hunter, i only had 2 or 3 epix and 4 greens, the rest was blue, he had 3000hp more and when he was down i had 4500hp left, u just have to know how to play the class with the different talent specs, if u go MM make sure u have lots of mana, or else ur screwed :) SURV is an awesome spec, and my dps was great for my gear, and i came in close to the epic geared peepz in karazan.

I'm currently a Marksman, level.58 Hunter who probably takes his pet for granted as a damage sponge Phys.Tank spec -- That is, giving him every one of the stamina, armor, and basic defensive abilities, but none of the anti-magic.

It sounds bad, but he rips down warriors and rogues, and mages, priests, and druids never get a shot off while my quiver is full. I'm geared with a Hurricane and a few pieces of the Beaststalker set right now, but with points only invested into Marksman and really no idea what I'm talking about with DPS, I tend to have a lot of fun going 7-1 in my Kills-Death ratio.

However, the Marksman's worst enemy is a geared Protection Paladin, whom I flip a coin for on victory. Either I kill him and take a drink, or he kills me after using his Bubble and Lay of Hands as I've tazed his mana down to zilch, keeping him from healing with a nice balance of Silencing Shot and Arcane Torrent (I'm a Blood Elf, prefer to call them Mage-Stalkers).

I call my current spec Mage Stalker in general, since I can get through any kind of magic-user in the game, while anything else gets tossed to my wolf.

Don't beat me down with DPS calculations please...
I'm just playing this game for fun...

If you don't raid....why are you in a topic about raiding? :(

im a MM/Surv spec hunter (0/45/16) and i do pretty well in kara, on random trash mobs i never get below 50% because i got aspect of the viper  and i still get in the top 3 dps ( im not that good geared either just a few blues and epics)i usually auto shot all the time and put in arcane and multi shots. which all do like 1.2-2.4k crits each which i think its pretty low but it all adds up =/

Ok. I have my 70 hunter specd 7-42-12. And it seems to work just fine.  As far as BM hunters out dpsing a MM ... I just dont see it being possible unless the MM hunter completely sucks.  I typically out dps BM and Surv hunters, and I am not that well geared ... but to give an idea for up and coming MM hunters.  Imp aspect of the hawk is about the only thing worth it in BM, unless you plan on becoming a pet dependent hunter.  Btw, there are times when I dont even use my pet in raids.  He becomes a hassle and a mana drainer. =)

for those that wanna check : http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Khadgar&n=Cwake

BM is best raid spec...period.it's even best in pvp and soloing...it's overall the best hunter spec there is!oh,and you think your damage as MM is high but the dps is way lower...and aimed shot in a shot rotation just doesn't work it's a long cast and uses to much mana ,huge waste

Hi guys ! im lvl 52 BM and this is going to be my end game bulid for Kara, any help would be nice ! Thanks in adv ^^

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?052030005052122521051050520125000000 0000000000000000000000000000

by the way ! being as im going to put 20 Points in MM, i take it MM is a Mana Eatter of a whore so what kind of Gear or Enchants should i get IE Sprit for chest or + Mana ect ! Thanks once again !

Did you just quote the entire thread? >>

BM is the spec for raiding in my eyes, when you are BM nd you hear a MM hunter going i beat a BM hunter in damage meter, they forget tht BM means beast is better, so when they compare their dps nd their pets with a BM's pet nd a BM's dps they should see tht the BM hunter is far superior, unless the gear difference is like different by like 10 epics, but it's easy to keep you're pet alive, just keep mend pet up nd it should be fine, and SV can be a great spec IF you have enough Agil nd Stam to support it, but unless you have tht SV sucks, yes, EW does have its strengths but it only lasts for about 7 secs. And MM is a mana eater, for tht u need Great Int to do good damage, where as BM you dont need anything really, just a good pet nd you're geared for BM, nd like any other spec if you're talent points r crap you're gona suck


my point is BM is superior to any hunter spec when you compare you and you're pets dps to the BM hunter's nd pet's dps



hope this helps =D

Ok MM is meant for major dmg.
BM is meant for dmg and mini tank/dmg.
Surv is meant to help the whole group with expose armor and a lot of crits.

My point is that each one is needed and each one is very good. I'm Surv and love it. Just the way I like to play my character; personally everyone should try out each spec, like I have, and find out which one suits them best. All of this nonsense of which spec is better is stupid cause honestly all of them equal out if you look at it.


Vandelin
Azgalor

ok just to end this

GO 41/20/0 and KICK SOME MM AND SV ASS

HAVE A NICE DAY!

Lol I've beatin 41/20/00 before not that hard and they've beatin me. MM = BM = SV that plain and simple.

Vandelin
Azgalor

Lol i've beat 41/20 before not all that hard. The point is is that all of the specs are equal. No one is better than the other and it shows because no one can agree on one superior spec. I like SV cause it suits the way I play.

i agree with van1530.  Each spec has its place in the raid.  you just need to know how to play each spec. I'm survival and still manage to beat MM hunters and BM hunters on the damage meters (with equal gear) here's how. First of all get lots of fel mana pots. they are amazing for hunters since we dont rely on spell damage.  Use rapid fire at the very begining of the fight, then as soon as it's over use readiness and use rapid fire again. Then wait 3 min. (if you have both points in rapid killing) and use rapid fire again.  Then 3 min after use rapid fire then readiness then rapid fire again.  in 6 min i can use rapid fire 5 times.  however you burn through mana really fast so use your fel mana potions early in the fight and continue to use them whenever the potion cooldown is up. I am not claiming this is the "BEST" raid spec. i just wanted to comment that survival hunters are still great for damage.

Here is my spec if you care to look at it
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?tal=00000000000000000000005052012050 00000000033310002500302300520351

  I personally think this is a great raiding spec.  It gets the great dps from MM, imp apsect of the hawk from BM for 15% more dmg, and then efficiency so i can use AOTH all the time, imp CC, and EW from SV.  Please comment on spec if you think you can fine tune it, although i think it is the best raiding spec with good self dps and raid buffs.  Also i was wondering if 5 into master tactician would be better than 5 into imp aspect of the hawk.


[http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?tal=5000000000000000000000525001205 000000000033303002012302300530300]

  oops, didnt mean to post this.

  Since my link didnt work here are my talents i suggested.  It is a 5/20/36 build.

Hunter Talents
Minimum Required Level: 70
Required Talent Points: 61

Beast Mastery Talents -  5 point(s)

Improved Aspect of the Hawk - rank 5/5

Marksmanship Talents -  20 point(s)

Lethal Shots - rank 5/5
Improved Hunter's Mark - rank 2/5
Efficiency - rank 5/5
Aimed Shot - rank 1/1
Rapid Killing - rank 2/2
Mortal Shots - rank 5/5

Survival Talents -  36 point(s)

Monster Slaying - rank 3/3
Humanoid Slaying - rank 3/3
Hawk Eye - rank 3/3
Entrapment - rank 3/3
Clever Traps - rank 2/2
Deterrence - rank 1/1
Trap Mastery - rank 2/2
Surefooted - rank 3/3
Survival Instincts - rank 2/2
Killer Instinct - rank 3/3
Lightning Reflexes - rank 5/5
Thrill of the Hunt - rank 3/3
Expose Weakness - rank 3/3

YOU definately want to put points in master tactician and readiness. i would suggest taking the points from improved hawk and deterence. since a hunter should not be taking hits in a raid deterrence is not very helpful. i would also take the 2 points from improved hunters mark and put them in go for the throat.

raiding isnt all about dps. SV hunters are awesome with cc and it can be the difference between a wipe or not.
Especially in kara during the moroes fight i have to cc the ret pally and if he breaks out he kills healers easily then whole gop wipes.

apart from that i like BM cos it does more auto damage.. pet
but if ur pet dies half ur dps dies with it.

im 17/44/0 and i do fine in raids, i think that it all depends on if you know how to play your spec properly. And what you like best as well. I think all specs are important in raid.

aye, im a SV/MM hybrid, 0/enough points to get to scattershot/39

i say its just the way u feel and know how to play ur spec, not just ur class..
i am a nice CCer, and if simthing breaks loos from a trap, heres what i do for my spec:

ZOMGZOMGZOMG the stupid hunter broke his trap!

>wyvernsting
wait till WS is gone
>scorpid sting
>Scattershot
>and at this point my trap CD is usually over


i got to SS because it is very effective with CCing, if sumthing breaks, u should always have a backup plan

Brunes

thats nice but u cant ice trap if hes got a dot..i suggest breaking WS before it ends and then concussion, scatter shot and hope your trap cd is done