Clearly, fire has more dps.  I'm considering going frost though for a number of reasons.  Survivability, AOE, Water Elemental, and Less Threat are some of those reasons. 

On the other hand, I love damage.  My question is, how large is the gap between frost and fire DPS? 

i have been both frost & fire at lvl 70
i would say about 15% more damage (per second) for fire
if you use scorch 5x probably a third more dps
fire criticals are a little higher but are a lot meaner due to ignite in terms of total damage
frost does more damage per second against frozen targets, does more damage per second with a water elemental and does more damage per second with icy veins, probably in all 3 cases more than a fire mage does but a fire mage can sustain more damage for a long time and likely overall do more damage
still do not underestimate the frost mage

Why would fire mages be able to take more damage?

k sry if i wasnt clear,
to clarify:
sustain doing more damage for longer (regular casting) since frost can only temporarily exceed fire in dps (icy veins or when a water elemental is present)

not take more damage, actually a frost mage can take more damage with ice barrier

Fire may hit harder than frost, but you will usually die quicker. Your dps could be 4 million, but it wont matter if your dead. Staying alive=more dps
70 Gnome Mage, Darkspear

i think if you want dps go fire.
but if you plan on staying alive for more than 2 seconds go frost.
its one of those things where either way you go, your not going to be as good as could be if you went the other way.

it doesnt really matter if you go fire or frost

its strictly a matter of taste

(btw, i think icy veins was the worst thing to happen to the frost talent tree. it is useless)

icy veins decreases your spell casting time by 20% for a short time, good temporary boost, insignificant in the long run
just 20% more damage for a few seconds, 20% faster at dumping your mana

Frost seems to be more mana efficient as well - at least my frost mage almost never ooms while raiding (with routine use of evocate/mana gems/mana pots).  I can cast almost non-stop during raid fights (barring the pauses to reposition as the fight requires).  Our fire mage (whom I raid with mostly on my priest) seems to die or oom in almost every fight. 

I honestly cannot say if that is a gear issue or a play style issue, or perhaps a spec issue.  He out dpses my frost mage in short fights (like trash) but I'm typically 100 dps over him in any fight lasting longer than 5 min.  And let's face it - that's where the rubber meets the road.

And that's ignoring the fact that he dies in nearly every boss fight from environmental damage. 

So, I don't know... I like lower repair bills. And as frost I can solo a LOT easier than I could specced fire. 

I will say that you will likely find frost a harder road politically since most people equate fire with more dps.  As such, you might wish to give it a try and see how you like it.  Many mages absolutely LOVE fire spec. I just wanted to let you know that there are successful frost mage raiders out there. :) 

So the whole this about fire vs frost is fire does more damage, frost is better at staying alive. So I think that fire does more dps, can and will kill faster even if you do die faster, you kill your target frist.:)

first of all about icy veins. lets just set up a scene. your up against 2 lvl 70 rogues and youve gotten them down to about 10% each using mob atks but your health is down 2. now they are using sprint at you and that 20% faster casting time is all you need to lay them to rest before the shred you to bits.

next. fire has higher dps, but use more mana and have longer casting times. frost has lower dps, but uses less mana per atk and shorter casting times. both would completely pwn the other in certain situations, which situations you wish to pwn at is up to you.

i have a friend who is a fire mage and every now and then i train with him. he starts each battle with pyroblast, which
makes what ever we are attacking stay on him. unfortunetely
fireball takes longer to cast than frost bolt so he ends up
only getting mabye 2 hits in besides pyro, while i, a frost mage, stand to the side constantly casting frost bolt quickly and easily. though he only hits 3 times in total those 3 hits are about 30-60% stronger than my frost atks. in the end we are about even for dmg, but he takes much more dmg because of the huge amount of threat pyroblast creates.

in conclution dps leans slightly towards fire mages, but they take much more dmg.

i will just say this. i have raided as both frost and fire. as frost, prince kept wiping my group (the boss a top kara). as fire, i was able to burn him down MUCH quicker. also realize, there is a fire talent that increases dmg done to targets under 20% health by 10% (it could be other way around, i dont feel like lookin it up right now). how is this significant? most bosses will have around 100k-1000k left at 20%. that means that ur dmg against them will be increased for a VERY long period of time. plus the DoTs from fire crits further extend the dmg done and cast time on a raid boss isnt the beat all end all stat.

i donno. in PvP/arena, frost mages tend to do more dmg(personal experience, not written in stone) due to resilience nerfing the big crits from fire. soooooo, imo, both have significant DPS output, just know which one is more geared for what ur doin

i dueled a fire mage and he well break my ice barrier and kill my water element and pwned me with his stupid pyroblast


and his damn dragon breath so fire own frost in duel

but i will try again to see fire lose

if all things are equal frost mage will win if they know how to play as one
fire really can only win if the player of the frost mage sucks or the fire mage has such better gear than the frost mage by a huge margian ie a just turned lvl 70 frost mage vs a lvl 70 fire mage who has all the kara drops or full arena gear (which he probably got as a frost mage lol)

lol, though i would love to believe your theory, my fire mage has never lost a duel to a frost mage.
i've melted every barrier with a single dragons breath. as for the counterspell? please. no one uses cast times in duels. it's all about instacasts. the only time i've EVER used a cast in a duel was to polymorph then pyroblast. and in the event that i'm countered during polymorph, i still have all of my fire spells to burn through by the time the counterspell is up.

now i'm not bagging on frost at all, i'm just saying that i wouldn't be judging fire so harshly until you KNOW what you're up against.

i'm a fire mage, i've tried frost, and i admit. it's just not for me. arcane is kinda crappy till you get to 64 for AB. but love the mana pool. :-)

*shrugs*
-Nayr

That situation is a bit unlikely, VS. two 70 rogues who know what they are doing, one mage would not be alive long, let alone casting something besides instant spells. And lets say that did happen, If I were the rogue I would use blind/ shadowstep/ cos/ and deadly throw before I try and sprint at a mage.

On another note, for raiding I am specced arcane / fire and I almost never oom. With the intell increase of arcane tree I have up to 12k mana to burn through then another 7k with evocate and my gems and mana pots so I have a good 20k mana at my disposal in a boss fight and I am generally 2nd or 3rd on the dps meter (below warlocks)


EDIT: This is a response to one of the earler posts btw.

Well, ive never lost a duel to fire either, u couldnt even get close to hit with DB so just admit,its a fact, theres a reason why frost is pvp and fire's not. WE would prob be enough to take u down

Icy vien is a very helpfull skill, i love it for when your get to boss you got a smaller amount of cast time so your cast out many many icebolt.

62 frost mage

Sorry to say that Fire beats Frost in any DPS matter. To say the least --- Dead = No DPS, but ALL Magi need to learn how to manage Threat. Then DPS will be no problem. For instance, if I am running a undergeared guildie through SLabs I use a ranking 9 Fireball or Arcane Missles.

Though Heavy Fire Magi may not last long fights as a Arcane/Fire Mage. Though DPS may not be as high as a Heavy Fire, Overall DPS is what a Raid needs not a Nuker.


You get aggro u lose 50 DKP. LoL

Depends on where your going on you mage.

A common misconception is that a Fire Mage will die before a Frost Mage. BUT you also have to look at your THREAT Meter.

With that said, I specced Arcane/Fire (40/19/2). I never run out of mana, only in cases with Mana Burn have I actually ran out of mana. Even with constant use of Mana Shield (w/o imp MS) I dont run out of mana. And during a raid week i only go through 5 mana pots, and thats IF i am not watching my Gem CD's or if I am the main AOE.

I am out-DPS'd in short fights but come out on top in the overall DPS. Big thing that has kept me alive in raids is that I am not there to compete with my DPS. I am there to provide decent DPS, w/o gaining aggro and possibly causing a wipe.

I also DO NOT PvP.

i like frost, and at 70 with the correct gear and tailor specialty, i forget the name of it.... frost is almost as good as fire in damage...

70 fire and frost mage speaking from experience ;);)

lol. i don't know about that. it's very circumstantial though.
if its ranged, you'll probably win, but if it's up close and personal, i would.
it's tough to say.
I leveled to 60 as fire, then went to 70 as frost. frost is good, but i still think the output of fire is way superior to that of frost.

-Alderbran 70 fire mage Baelgun