Glad these replies are gettin less and less confrontational...


the 44% to 41% is comparing the 3.8 spd with 3.5 (ToD to JR) so yes, ur calcs are correct and yes, the 3% is noticable enough. The 42 to 41 i was comparing to was with 3.6 to 3.54 wep spds. Yes holy dmg is less resisted and absorbed since there is no such thing as holy resistance, minus the natural resist per lvl. BUT the holy dmg is not my arguement. We all know SoC is based on wep dmg (lookin strictly at wep only, no other gear). So if the wep has a dmg range of 100-300, the SoC will proc with the dmg of that range, no matter what the SPD is for that wep. Can we agree to that? So this leads me to the following calculation, and this time ill make it more legible:

Original Wep Spd = 3.8(OWS)
Haste % = 5%(H)
Wep dmg range = 100-300(DR)
SoC ppm = 7

Reduction in spd = 3.8*.05 =.19(HSR)
3.8(OWS)-.19(HSR)= 3.61(HWS)
Avg wht dmg = 100+300 (dmg range)/2 = 200(DMG)
SoC dmg = 200(DMG)*.70 = 140 (CDMG)
140(CDMG)*7(PPM)= 980(TCDMG)(This is a constant, not variable)
60 (secs p/m)/3.8(OWS) = 15.79(OS)
60 (secs p/m)/3.61(HWS) = 16.62(HS)
Wht dmg done p/m (OWS) = 15.79(OS)*200(DMG)=3158(TODMG)
Wht dmg done p/m (HWS) = 16.62(HS)*200(DMG)=3324(THDMG)

So in a min, this is the dmg done with WHT and SoC ONLY for both:

Original spd wep = 3158(TODMG)+980(TCDMG)=4138(TO)
Haste spd wep = 3324(THDMG)+980(TCDMG)=4304(TH)

So in a minute, the difference in DMG done between a 3.8 spd wep and a 3.8 spd wep hasted to 3.61 = 166 Total DMG. The constants used were the dmg range (since that doesnt change), the wep, the time in which we're calculating (60 secs) and the SoC dmg (since its a ppm). So again, whether ur target has 1000 armor or 10000 armor, this calc ends up being the same ratio since it is the same wep, just dif spds.

Now here is when the SoC chance to proc per SWING (not per min) comes in.

Ori Wep Spd = 3.8
Hst Wep Spd = 3.61 ((3.8-(3.8*.05))
Avg Dmg = 200
SoC Dmg = 140

Dmg in 5 secs (time = constant):
Swings = 5/3.8 = 1.32
Swings = 5/3.61 = 1.39
SoC Dmg = 1.32*140*.443333(Proc per swing%) = 81.67
SoC Dmg = 1.39*140*.421167 = 81.67
Wht Dmg = 1.32*200 = 263.16
Wht Dmg = 1.39*200 = 277.01
Total Dmg 3.8 = 344.82
Total Dmg 3.61 = 358.67
Dif in 3.8 to 3.61 = 13.85 DMG in favor of 3.61 spd

Dmg in 45 secs (time = constant):
Swings = 45/3.8 = 11.84
Swings = 45/3.61 = 12.47
SoC Dmg = 11.84*140*.443333(Proc per swing%) = 735
SoC Dmg = 12.47*140*.421167 = 735
Wht Dmg = 11.84*200 = 2368.42
Wht Dmg = 12.47*200 = 2493.07
Total Dmg 3.8 = 3103.42
Total Dmg 3.61 = 3228.07
Dif in 3.8 to 3.61 = 124.65 DMG in favor of 3.61 spd

Dmg in 60 secs (time = constant) to show the SoC procs per swing dmg is also a CONSTANT in longer periods of time:
Swings = 60/3.8 = 15.79
Swings = 60/3.61 = 16.62
SoC Dmg = 15.79*140*.443333(Proc per swing%) = 980
SoC Dmg = 16.62*140*.421167 = 980
Wht Dmg = 15.79*200 = 3157.89
Wht Dmg = 16.62*200 = 3324.10
Total Dmg 3.8 = 4137.89
Total Dmg 3.61 = 4304.10
Dif in 3.8 to 3.61 = 166.20 DMG in favor of 3.61 spd

Dmg in 36000 secs (time = constant)600 mins or 10 hours:
Swings = 36000/3.8 = 9473.68
Swings = 36000/3.61 = 9972.30
SoC Dmg = 9473.68*140*.443333(Proc per swing%) = 588000
SoC Dmg = 9972.30*140*.421167 = 588000
Wht Dmg = 9473.68*200 = 1,894,736.84
Wht Dmg = 9972.30*200 = 1,994,459.83
Total Dmg 3.8 = 2,482,736.84
Total Dmg 3.61 = 2,582,459.83
Dif in 3.8 to 3.61 = 99,722.99 DMG in favor of 3.61 spd

Now this is when haste sux:
Dmg Per (1) SWING as a constant:
Time = 1/3.8 = 3.8
Time = 1/3.61 = 3.61
SoC Dmg = 1*140*.443333(Proc per swing%) = 62.07
SoC Dmg = 1*140*.421167 = 58.96
Wht Dmg = 1*200 = 200
Wht Dmg = 1*200 = 200
Total Dmg 3.8 = 262.07
Total Dmg 3.61 = 258.96
Dif in 3.8 to 3.61 = 3.10 DMG in favor of 3.8 spd

Dmg Per (5) SWING as a constant:
Time = 5/3.8 = 19
Time = 5/3.61 = 18.05
SoC Dmg = 5*140*.443333(Proc per swing%) = 310.33
SoC Dmg = 5*140*.421167 = 294.82
Wht Dmg = 5*200 = 1000
Wht Dmg = 5*200 = 1000
Total Dmg 3.8 = 1310.33
Total Dmg 3.61 = 1294.82
Dif in 3.8 to 3.61 = 15.52 DMG in favor of 3.8 spd

Ok, so as u can see, the Procs per swing chance(PPSC) no matter what the length of time is (as the constant) = the same dmg output. Why is this? Because as ur haste goes up, the PPSC goes down, BUT the Swings per min (SPM) goes up, which essentially makes it the same, just dif calculation line.

Now how this haste affects burst is kinda shown in the swings calcualtions where if u only get a certain amount of swings, the PPSC affects the the SoC dmg ONLY since theres less swings per minute for the SoC ppm to hit. This means in BURST situations, the extra 2% (.02) to proc on ur swing, is consider BURST ONLY, and not sustained dmg over time.

NOTE - these calculations are ONLY based on wep dmg only with the constants listed above. This does NOT include crit %'s or any stats from other peices of gear to raise AP/crit/haste, judgements, or CS.  Feel free to check my math. I may be a .01 off, but thats due to rounding. Only listed the PPSC as 6 digits long to be a lil more accurate.

PPSC = Proc Per Swing Chance. Calc = 7(SoC ppm)/(60(secs)/3.8(wep spd)) #'s = 7/(60/3.8) = .443333
7/(60/3.61) = .421167 *3.61 = (3.8-(3.8*.05))*

So to those of you (if any) are still reading this long ass post, you can see that over longer periods of time, this wep (or haste in general) does increase dmg over one w/o haste. This ofc is ONLY TRUE if the stats on the wep are the same, except for the haste rating.

To Azres, the main argument i had in ur OP was that the PPSC ONLY affected BURST dmg, and not sustained. The calc's were to show u that it didnt matter what % the PPSC were, as long as the time tested on both weps w/ or w/o haste were tested by time... and not by swing. Although we touched on numerous things such as ToD, PVP, PVE, epics, w/e else is mentioned in BOTH our posts, the main point I was trying to make was that the SoC procs should not be taken too seriously. And although the haste does impact a hunters dps, it affects ALL that can use this... INCLUDING ret pallies. The fact that ppl say this is for Ret's and Arms wars is mainly due to the fact that the wep DMG RANGE is geared for melee combat, not ranged. And the best use of the SPD is for them. The stats (including haste and AP) are benefical to ALL. If this item had STR instead of the AP, yes it would be even clearer. If it had some AGIL on there, yes, it would more clear (hunts). But since it doesnt, you cant simply look at haste n say its hunter wep, cuz again, we all benefit from it.

As far as ur comment on ToD vs SH, well like u said, its obvious that ToD is better for PVE since it has a higher dmg range as well as stun procs being useless in raids. And ofc its also obvious that HS n its stun procs are much more valuable that the minor dmg increase you get from ToD. The dmg difference may be noticable, but the chance to stun n interrupt ones style of play/spell sequence, is far more valuable than the dps increase it self. And also, i only used the 1 wep as my examples for the calc's cuz there would be too many variables (well more, not "too many") to compare 2 or 3+ weps along with haste and make this post into a 5 page entry. If you STILL ARE disagreeance with my calc's, go enter them in urself and see. If u think i didnt account a few key things that would throw my calcs off, lemme know n i will fix them. I do want to confirm one thing with you tho... The dmg range for this wep (JR) 380-570 is a constant correct? Whether its no haste or 2000 haste, the dmg range will be the same. The only thing that changes is wep spd. Nothing else. And like ive already mentioned, too much haste, or an incorrect balance of it CAN throw on rotation off, but this is to simply state that this wep alone, EVEN WITH ITS HASTE, is not bad for us.